After our long, impassioned discussion about God and atheism, it had to eventually come to a closure. Duh. And this closure isn't what i intended it to be - He simply didn't reply me upon being unable to answer my rebuttal.
HaiS...I would have expected a more humble reply like "O gosh, i never saw it that way. I guess I'll begin to seek and discover more about God then :) Thanks for your time :D"
But NO, like every atheist i've encountered, they all possess an innumerable heap-load of pride, debating with their superior tone as if they knew everything. I sometimes want to whack them and rub it in, but of course i won't la. Cos that'll be totally carnal and devil-inspired and I will lose my testimony. Haha. But o well, i still love the sinner. If only i could meet him one day... :)
So yup, here's my wrap up :)
Hey :) It's been a few weeks since i heard from you since my last reply to you. Did you receive my last reply? :) And i have yet to know your name :D Haha. I'm Jonavan. :D And i've really really learnt alot from you thus far. So may i know the name behind the brains i've been discussing the issue of God with? :)
And, i guess we've come to a conclusion where science cannot prove the initial existence of everything. And waiting on science won't be the solution either because it'll also end up in a chain of infinite alternate realities where Science has to unravel.
So that leaves us with the next most possible conclusion - there may be a God after all. I shall leave you with this last theory called "Wager Theory" It's a very simple logical theory which examines the 'what if Jesus or atheism is false' question.
Here goes this 'theory': What if Jesus is false and atheism is true? What do the Christians stand to lose? - We wasted our time in going to church. Which is not a big issue - we make good friends there and if there were no God, life will be meaningless, so time spent doing anything would be useless anyway. - We wasted our lives investing in the cause of "God's Kingdom". Same as the previous point.
BUT what if.. Atheism is false and Jesus and what He said is true? - You (atheists / unbeliever) will spend an eternity in hellfire. Which is a big issue concerning after-life. - You (atheists / unbeliever) have wasted your whole life investing in something that amounts to nothing - work, PhDs, etc...are worth nothing in heaven but our relationship with God and men.
So upon examination, the atheist will stand to lose out more.
So my advice to you is to try out Christianity. Join a church, be mentored by a good pastor and discover for yourself the beauty of Christianity. After all, our discussions have derived at a conclusion where science does not disprove God and God is still very much the most probable reason for everything that we see around us. So why not try out this possibility? :)
The aim of our discussion is for us to examine the errors we have in our thinking and seek to rectify them. So i hope, upon knowing this truth, you will begin to search and ask more about God and don't live in denial and stop shooting other Christians in youtube down :)
I have recently bought a book about Atheism entitled "Can Man Live Without God?" by Ravi Zacharias. Maybe u can check out his books. Because he is one of my favourite writers who debates the fallacy / notion of atheism. As to the congruency or the reliability of Christianity, you can check out books by Lee Strobel and Josh McDowell - my personal favourites to all the proofs that support Christianity.
I hope to see you someday :) Hopefully up there in heaven :D Awaiting your reply(ies) :D
God Bless,
Jonavan :)
Harlow, the Pascal's Wager theory is indeed an interesting argument that has been brought up many times as an argument to beleive. I am not sure if you are aware about this, but many scholars and philosophers has also pointed out the various logical flaws that the the Pascal’s Wager seems to have some flaws. I found this website that kind of simplify the argument against the Pascal’s wager on the web:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/arguments.html#pascal
###
"If you believe in God and turn out to be incorrect, you have lost nothing--but if you don't believe in God and turn out to be incorrect, you will go to hell. Therefore it is foolish to be an atheist."
This argument is known as Pascal's Wager. It has several flaws.
Firstly, it does not indicate which religion to follow. Indeed, there are many mutually exclusive and contradictory religions out there. This is often described as the "avoiding the wrong hell" problem. If a person is a follower of one religion, he may end up in another religion's version of hell.
Even if we assume that there's a God, that doesn't imply that there's one unique God. Which should we believe in? If we believe in all of them, how will we decide which commandments to follow?
Secondly, the statement that "If you believe in God and turn out to be incorrect, you have lost nothing" is not true. Suppose you're believing in the wrong God--the true God might punish you for your foolishness. Consider also the deaths that have resulted from people rejecting medicine in favor of prayer.
###
For a more detail explanation perhaps you can take a look at the wiki page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_wager
What will be your thoughts on this?
For me the Pascal Wager seems to be a pretty weak argument to believe that the christian god is the only god that is true and exist in the world. The question i have is, what if the true God is not the the christian God you are praying to and he decides that you should go to hell? You will have also lost your wager.
If you are looking at the probability, than i would say that the probability of going to hell or heaven for christianity, or other religions will be the same basing on this pascal wager theory. There is just not enough proof to show that the christian God or any other god exist or does not exist. Basing on the Pascal’s Wager, I think as an athetist and a believer we can also agree that if the existence of god is uncertain, the whole concept of hell or heaven will also be uncertain….
So instead of spending so much time, effort and money on something that is so uncertain and abstract, why not spend all this resources on something that is certain, real and definite - YOUR CURRENT LIFE on earth! Enrich it, make the world a better place to live in!
The Past is history, that is certain; the future is a mystery which is uncertain; but today is a gift, a soon to be certainty -and that’s why we called it the present.
If you were to ask me to choose, I will treasure the present, my current life on earth rather than an afterlife that existence is still uncertain...
My 5 cents worth...Hope to hear our thoughts on it! :D
zhimin
Hey! :) Thanks for your reply! Haha. Did you read my earlier post? The "God and Atheism" post? Read that. Cos the main argument is not Pascal Wager's theory. But the authenticity of Christianity. Pascal Wager's theory sits on that truth. I shall strip your argument point by point and answer them :)
ReplyDelete"Firstly, it does not indicate which religion to follow. Indeed, there are many mutually exclusive and contradictory religions out there."
Yes this theory doesn't indicate which religion. Well personally, I don't care about any other religion other than my faith Christianity. So yes, i applied his quote to the Christian context which is the most verifiable, reliable and defendable.
"This is often described as the "avoiding the wrong hell" problem. If a person is a follower of one religion, he may end up in another religion's version of hell."
Like I said, no other religion bothers me. I can prove every religion flawed except Christianity. Thus I am a Christian. :)
"Even if we assume that there's a God, that doesn't imply that there's one unique God. Which should we believe in? If we believe in all of them, how will we decide which commandments to follow?"
Firstly, to believe in all gods would be plain dumb. Because, all religions have different fundamental truths which differ greatly from each other to the point of refuting each others' claims.
So how do we know there's only ONE God? Well there might be millions of 'em. But how do we go about proving the ONE god or the MILLIONS of gods? Through different religions. And as you start to pry open the different religions, many apparent truths, lies, fallacies, and absolute truths will start to fall out. That's when you pick up those pieces and identify which is the best piece of information.
"Secondly, the statement that "If you believe in God and turn out to be incorrect, you have lost nothing" is not true. Suppose you're believing in the wrong God--the true God might punish you for your foolishness."
If I turn out to be incorrect, then no one else will be correct. Why? Because no other religion stands on more solid and proven facts than Christianity. The probability of error is totally minimised and up till today, no one can proof the many facts of Christianity wrong. So if i'm wrong, it won't be much of a problem. Haha. And besides, even if i'm wrong, i still would have thoroughly enjoyed my time here on Earth because of my faith. And my faith has helped me conquer many, countless trials in my journey of life. Meet me up and i can share with you my stories. :)
Question is does atheism help you?
I don't understand why the atheist (in general) will fight for some stupid, meaningless cause that will just prove everything utterly meaningless, colourless and every effort of righteousness and love futile. Why would meaningless beings like us be so obsessed with purpose and love? I shan't shoot all my arguements in one comment. Haha. Later we both get lost. Haha.
"Consider also the deaths that have resulted from people rejecting medicine in favor of prayer."
Those people who have rejected medicine in favour of prayer are either stupid, or they have heard a distinct instruction from God. This comment touches very much on Christianity already. If you want me to fully elaborate, I can, but upon your asking. Cos it's really long.
So yeah, I hope this helps you a little. If no, we can meet up for a little chat. :) Because online debates seem pretty distant and lacking the flare of my personality and yours. Yup, I'd love to meet you up soon :) Another great thinker which I always admire :)